to all the posts about Bush...

[Aemon_]

he won, quit whining. you are in minority, the American people voted, and they voted for Bush. whining like 3 year olds will not change it. nothing would have been better under Kerry, unless you think a terrorist living next door and blowing up the biggest building in your hometown is safety, then i guess things would have been better for you under Kerry. if you don't like Bush being the president, leave. quit bashing the commander and chief of the the greatest country in the world. and yes, it is the greatest country in the world. i'm glad that some people on here actually support our leader, but i dont agree with some things. we are the greatest because we help people with out even so much as a 'thanks'. our soldiers die and their own people don't even appreciate what they do. so every one needs to just shutup and grow up. and no offence intended, really - if you aren't American or don't live in the USA, SHUTUP!! and worry about your own leadership.

i know you people won't care, but i'm so sick of seeing this crap that i'm really wishing there was an ignore feature on this board. i really like what SOME of you say about other things on the board. i've gotten some really good help, but its not worth this stupidity. plus, it would be really hard to participate in the word association thread ignoring people.

anyway, i am done. i probably wont reply though, because i don't even want to see it discussed anymore. let it go.

let the flaming of Aemon begin.

later

p.s. i'm not leaving, thats just immature. but i just wanted to make my opinion known again, and hope that you have some decency as to create a forum for this crap and only give the Bush haters access to it, so that we who do support the president dont have to see it.

[Jason425]

yea bush was the majority... after further rigging the election since he didn't do a good enough job last time because he lost the pop vote and still won (that electoral college needs to die...)

[StinkyMojo]

I hope this wasn't directed to my pic, which has nothing to do with bush bashing.

[Aemon_]

I hope this wasn't directed to my pic, which has nothing to do with bush bashing.
no, not about your pic.

[cherrypie]

ok.... i can kinda see where this rant came from...... but leadership of your country affects more than just your country.....

the fact that a majority of american people who voted in the last election voted for bush doesn't mean that most of the rest of the world wasn't sitting watching the election hoping anyone but him would get in.....

like it or not the leadership of the united states affects most of the world and everyone is entitled to complain or agree or have whatever opinion they choose

[Dragon]

yea bush was the majority... after further rigging the election since he didn't do a good enough job last time because he lost the pop vote and still won (that electoral college needs to die...)

okay, as much as that makes me wanna retort, aemon is right. its over. he won. it was fun to debate before the election but there is nothing to debate anymore. kerry conceded.

[Aemon_]

like it or not the leadership of the united states affects most of the world and everyone is entitled to complain or agree or have whatever opinion they choose
yes, but you don't have to knowingly offend every one who's opinion differs from yours along the way. thats just rude, disrespectful, and really just plain annoying. and i'm sick of it.

later

[james]

he won, quit whining. you are in minority, the American people voted, and they voted for Bush. whining like 3 year olds will not change it.

Well, obviously the existence of dissent is going to change the result of the election. No major insight there. but the notion that a) dissent is whining is problematic and b) that the fact he won warrants there not be dissent is absurd. The same would be true if Kerry won. Conservatives would have had just as much right to dissent under a Liberal leadership as vice versa.

nothing would have been better under Kerry, unless you think a terrorist living next door and blowing up the biggest building in your hometown is safety, then i guess things would have been better for you under Kerry.

It's not entirely clear what you are trying to get at here. It's not really much of an argument, but more of an empty assertion/claim. "Nothing would have been better" depends upon a preference ordering, which is a subjective (that is, dependent upon the agent choosing). If my preference was that Kerry won, then, in fact, things would have been better if Kerry won because my preference would have been fulfilled. This is pretty basic decision theory. If what I prefer are a set of "liberal" principles like separation of church and state, a high valuation of scientific theory, a value for human rights, etc., then we can suppose that Kerry would be closer to filling that preference ordering than Bush, and things would have been better. If you are simply referring to the security situation, then your statement is really quite narrow and should read something like "Kerry could have done nothing to improve the security situation in America today" rather than try making a universal claim that Kerry would have been the least Pareto efficient choice among the candidates.

Assuming you are dealing with the narrow context of the security situation, you might find yourself in odd company. Almost every security expert has backed Kerry or at least pointed out gross incompetence on the part of Bush both pre- and post- 9/11, not to mention the "dis"handling (as opposed to "mis"handling, which implies an accident as opposed to purposeful distortion of information, which has been alleged by a number of CIA analysts since BEFORE the war. Basically, no one seriously expected there to be WMD in the intelligence community, it was just a good excuse. This is well documented.)

if you don't like Bush being the president, leave.

Or you can kick me out . . . what is the basis for saying this. There's never been a president that was elected by 100% of the people. Are you saying we should have massive emmigration after each election based on who votes? This suggestion is akin to the kind of elections that were held in Iraq under Saddaam.

quit bashing the commander and chief of the the greatest country in the world. and yes, it is the greatest country in the world.

Again, what is the standard for great? I don't think a powerful military, large economy, or long history of prejudice makes a country great. Unless you can say why you think that, you might as well not write it.

we are the greatest because we help people with out even so much as a 'thanks'. our soldiers die and their own people don't even appreciate what they do.

Or maybe they are just a little pissed that over 100,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed since the war, last estimated by British and American researches a few months ago. The US is actually at the bottom of the giving pool as a percentage of GDP among developed countries, counting or not counting private donations. We give LESS than just about any country that has what can be called a modern economy. If you see a millionaire give $50 bucks and a homeless person $20 to a good cause, you're not going to be all that impressed by the millionaire, but you will be by the homeless person. So perhaps they are reserving the thanks to those that sacrifice the most for their own good, rather than those that put in a relatively insignificant portion of their income, kill tens of thousands of their people, reserve profit-making contracts (at Iraqi's expense) for American "coalition" companies, etc.

so every one needs to just shutup and grow up. and no offence intended

I find that hard to believe. They way that is phrased is very much intended to provoke a reaction. Besides, I would think that "growing up" would consist of coming to an understanding that people can disagree on issues and that that disagreement should be allowed to be voiced and should be listened to when forming policy that impacts the entire world.

if you aren't American or don't live in the USA, SHUTUP!! and worry about your own leadership.

It's been said, but if China invaded the US, I'm pretty sure you would very vocally wish for a different leadership in China, perhaps a more pacifist one. Those doing that now with the US have just as much right to voice their concerns. They are not asking to be able to choose our leader, but that we take something other than our own narrow interests into account when voting since our vote has impact well beyond the set of people elligible to vote.

on the issue of rigging the election. I doubt Bush had much to do with rigging the election. If there was any rigging (which the consistency of the exit polls with the count don't suggest there was a significant amount of rigging), then I also doubt Bush was even aware of it. I think since Nixon, presidents and their underlings have been pretty conscious of keeping the head guy out of such rigging. Either way, there are much bigger issues such as 1) the electoral college and 2) partisan districting

1) the electoral college disenfranchises democrats in republican states and republicans in democratic states. the original purpose was to make sure that the people couldn't directly influence the president b/c they weren't viewed to be competent enough to select him. no one accepts any of these as being things worth keeping, so the electoral college should definitely be gotten rid of. Ideally, replaced with something like a Condecerot election, where the person who wins is the person who would win in every head-to-head race against any other candidate, taken one at a time. of course, this assumes that voter preferences are reflexive, transitive, and complete, but i think that's an ok assumption.

2) the US is the only country in the industrialized world where those elected are the same people who draw voting districts. THere is now an entire software industry to allow legislators to better marginalize the minority party through redistricting. Both parties do this. It SHOULD be illegal. However, the Supreme Court refuses to take up the case, and would probably not rule it as such, despite the fact that no one really thinks it is fair, and I would argue is a violation of the right to vote as that vote is intentionally marginalized to the point that the minority party's votes basically do not count as much as the majority party's votes (i.e. we've relegislated the 3/5's clause along partisan as opposed to racial lines. not exactly desirable.)

[CiKoTiC]

I like bush... wait, what bush are we talking about? :P

[Dragon]

i think aemon was right. i thouroughly agree that the whining needs to stop. i think eeryone is entitled to thier opinion, and agree with most points from either side. people just cant seem to keep emotion out of it, and it urns into a personal battle. i votd for bush, and am glad he won, i agree with his morals and, moreover, i agree that something needed to be done about iraq for a while now. he went out and he did something flat out. kerry may have been equally successful, but as the most important issue to me, bush seemed the way to go because he had already proven e was gonna go out and do something. i agreed with some of kerrys views and disagreed with some of bushs. the trouble was, kerry contradicteed himself alot, and it shook the faith i may have had in him. i didnt vote straight party, or like my parents or anything. i voted because of what i agreed with. kerry didnt have the approval of the pope either, and i wanted a leader agreeable with religion, because i think that faith in something can be a motivator. i think bush was the right choice, and frankly we'll never know if he was or not.

i also respect kerry for having the guts to concede instead of dragging i out.

[cherrypie]

well said James :)

[Aemon_]

It's not entirely clear what you are trying to get at here. It's not really much of an argument, but more of an empty assertion/claim.
as has been just about every statement about president Bush made here.

and about people who arent american, as far as i know, the US has not invaded canada.

No really James, I liked your post. Some actual facts and real thought put into it. Not like 'God hates bush!' and that annoying Bush arrested thread where people were glorifing the idea that bush be assasinated among other things. I'd rather just stay completely away from politics all together, i just got sick of all the childish statements, which i made in my post, and i apologise for those.

look, i really dont care who anyone supports. its not gonna make me think differently of a person, just keep stupid pot shots at people out of the general forum, make a political forum and keep it in there. thats all that i ask. not to hard to go into phpBB admin and create a new forum, and limit it to people who ask for access.

and yes CiK, that would be a much more interesting topic.

later

[Prometheus]

Aemon

I dont agree with what you are saying. But I will defend to the death your right to say it. That is american ideals at work.

But I happen to think the USA has lost its values in many places. We value the wrong things above our friends and family. We value religion over common sense. It's despicable. Bush won because we have a lot of people down south especially who like seeing arabian bodies on TV. People who are too trusting of the media and its information. etc etc I could go on forever but I digress from my point.


You love america. Fine. Obey the constiution and let us voice our opinion. We dont need your oppression on free thought.


(this is not a taunt or an insult just a friendly reminder)

[Aemon_]

Bush won because we have a lot of people down south especially who like seeing arabian bodies on TVyessiree, we southerners love seeing those arabs being blown up on our majik boxes.

no opression, just mad about silliness taken too far. if you wanted to argue in an intellegent fashion like James did, fine, i'll still ignore it to the best of my abilities, but it would be better.

i'm done now though. i will never voice my opinion again because apparently its oppressive. and you will forever be right it my eyes. anyway, this is a tech forum for crying out loud. go back to doing hardware reviews and tech news. thats all i care about here, if i wanted to see politcal crap i'd go find it elsewhere.

later

[Napster]

This whole thread is useless. There is nothing we can say or do to change what has happened. Its all a bunch of "What If's" and If you can't make good with what has been brought before you in the present then you will be doomed to repeat the past.

Its over this thread cannot change what has already happened.

[vee_ess]

yea bush was the majority... after further rigging the election since he didn't do a good enough job last time because he lost the pop vote and still won (that electoral college needs to die...)

There was no rigging done, nor anything to imply that there was. It was a close race and everyone knew that's how it was going to be from polls. Also, Bush won both the popular vote and the electoral college vote (http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2004/pages/results/president/), altering the facts doesn't make it very easy to align with you.

cherrypie, you seem to be one of the ones who should be saying the least about the matter, yet all I see from you is Bush-bashing. You don't like him, and I think most of us have gotten that picture by now. Also, if your country feels so strongly against stuff going on in the U.S., don't deal with us!

James... about the U.S. having a long history of prejudice, we are the ones who broke past most forms of institutionalized prejudice in the Western world, paving a way for others. You are absolutely right about redistricting; it should be illegal.

Dragon, I know it's none of my business, but I'd just like to say I don't like how religion played into this vote. Even though we all know that Church and State are really not separate in practice, I feel it should at least be in the background. I noticed a lot of Bush supporters liked Bush because of religious affiliation and not necessarily because of policy. It's not clear to me how that makes for good governing.

Overall, I think Aemon's right. If we are helping someone choose between an X800XT and a 6800 Ultra, we should be talking about Z-Buffer compression and vertex shader pipelines, not Bush/Kerry bashing.

One last thing. STOP BUGGING ME ABOUT WHO I VOTED FOR! All Bush fans think they have me figured out and tell me they can't believe I voted for Kerry, and all Kerry fans are certain that I filled out about 5 ballots voting for Bush. I'm not telling anyone who I voted for because I feel that we are generally too open with who we are going to vote for and who we voted for, because that leads to other voting problems, such as redistricting (I know that's supposed to actually be just based on political party status, but you get the point).

[CiKoTiC]

I LIKE BUSH!

I LIKE BUSH!

I LIKE BUSH!


Shazbot!!! I'm in the wrong thread again! Maybe even on the wrong website.

I'm soooo confused.

:biggrin:

[Napster]

hey vee_ess and Jason425 Cry me a river.... Save it for next election

[CiKoTiC]

Hehe..

religion and politics.

What's the point in even discussing them?

Did I mention I like bush?

Now what was the site??? www.bigti... or something.

Ahhh crap, I can't remember. :P

[Prometheus]

what site?

[StinkyMojo]

Now what was the site??? www.bigti... or something.

Ahhh crap, I can't remember. :P

:rofl:

[CiKoTiC]

Thanks Stinky... I'm glad you see the humor. Everyone here is so wound tight up over politics I'd bet you couldn't stick a needle between their butt cheeks.

The thing you gotta remember is you cannot win an argument in religion or politics.

[Jason425]

my favorite things to do in the bush/kerry thing is look at who voted for who and stats about those groups.. the bush voters being the farmers with low IQ's and almost all being god-fearing thumpers.. and the kerry voters being urban college grads that are more balanced in their religious practices.. I don't have a link for that - but I do have this..

[Evidence Mounts That The Vote May Have Been Hacked] (http://www.commondreams.org/views04/1106-30.htm)

[Dragon]

well, as we attempt to pacify ourselves by being right, id like to say.. hey wtf?!

and 425:

"Those who would sacrifice a little Liberty for more Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -Benjamin Franklin

thats cute, nice quote. lets just imprison all of them like the japanese, or the jews, or.. oh to heck with it, kill em all, or just leave out to die. or be opressed. im sure their alternatives are so much better. whats the matter with them?

you know 200 years ago, while WE were being treated unfairly, that still didnt apply.. what kind of person are you that you should take away peoples liberty and safety because their views differ from your own? quoting a great man out of context makes you look ignorant. im not trying to insult you, but i adamently disagree with that statement, and this seemed a good time to bring it up.

[Jason425]

um... do you not understand what that quote means? It means that you don't give up your rights (like the patriot act does) for "safety from terrorists"... it's along the same lines as "people shouldn't be treated unfairly" like you were saying... You should probably not take quotes like that out of context and then misinterpret them and try to make me look bad in the process... just not a good idea.. but everyone makes mistakes, so i'll let it go.. here, have a http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/bandaid.gif

[Prometheus]

in WW2 they imprisoned Japenese in camps but not germans.....racism at work.

[StinkyMojo]

cause japan caused pearl harbor incident.. but i see your point

[Jason425]

that and the us Gov't is against ricers... :P that and germans prob held better jobs / are harder to distinguish

[Dragon]

well your right, i thought you were criticizing the iraqi people for accepting other countries occupations.

but still... deserve neither? i dont think thats right..

[gnogtr]

Wow, I like how J425 just attempted to knock me...And what kills me is that he is still in high school...Hmmm let's see, the most who voted for Bush are low IQ's and farmers...Well let's see, I'm a senior in college, getting my degree in Civil Engineering (I'm almost out BTW), and I plan on getting my Masters degree in Buisness....Now, I grew up on a farm at that, and my IQ floats around 130, so yes jackass, I'm a stupid farmer that voted for Bush, and I apparently didn't even graduate from high school. Now, let's look at the farmers, most of the large farms in the Midwest (all states went to Bush) are huge buisnesses that are run by people that got degrees in Agriculture and possibly a Masters in Buisness.

Now, that said, let's look at the people that voted, let's see the last time I checked my college is about 95% Conservative. DAMN! I though most ppl that voted for Bush were YOUR age. The Liberal point of view is just stupid, check your sources before you try to test my brains, oh and graduate high school before you act like you know the world.

Oh, and for the "Bible thumping" thing, yes, I'm a Christian, so what?!?! That had no bearing on who I voted for, I voted for Bush because he had a plan, unlike Kerry. Bush never swayed from what he said, he was never wishy-washy, so let's see, hmmm...that has a whole HELL of alot to do with my religion.

I don't care how the rest of the world feels about our country, it couldn't matter to me more, and yes, I have British friends (one even works with me here in the Industrial Ed Building), and I even have friends in the great country of Holland, who apparently love my Christian band...

Wow, I'm a stupid "Bible thumping" farmer that apparently never made it through high school, Damn, I'm dumber than I thought!

[StinkyMojo]

nice to see you almost outta college.. congrats..

btw.. jason 1st year college student now :nod:
same for me

[vee_ess]

I agree with gnogtr about how Jason425s conceptions are innacurrate. In truth, you have to look at the degrees of idealism/realism in various groups... Kerry is an idealist; he never needed a plan, just the belief that it will all work out if he is in office. Young people, especially those in high school or early years of college, are very strongly idealists. Bush is more of a realist, who has a plan, but can't admit when he's wrong (making reference to the debates mostly). Conservatives and older generations and cultures often show little hope, or at least count on it, and often fail to recognize problems (because they choose not to because they don't think anything can be done about it anyways).

I can understand why Jason425 would think something like he does, however. Liberal articles and online documentation is just as much yellow-journalism as their conservative counterparts, just as misleading. That leads me to all those liberal groups claiming that there are "mountains" of evidence piling proving that the election was rigged. These different sites show somewhat surprising data, but it's often contradicted by the data on other sites, proving that most of them are not being purely honest in their reporting (or their sources aren't). Also, claims of ESS and Diebold rigging the election show a lack of knowledge about how electronic voting works. ESS and Diebold do not have access to the closed network, and they couldn't have rigged the machines beforehand because states and precincts set up the voting layouts.

I'm beginning to see that the only one in Kerry's camp who isn't a sore loser is John Kerry.

[gnogtr]

Ok, I was wrong about his college status, but I'm still quite firm in the beliefs that I stated, and yes I agree that Bush has a problem admitting that he is wrong sometimes, but I myself am guilty of that...Although with my new job, I'm rarely wrong :D

[Napster]

Gnogtr why do you even put up with his BS, I swear to God when I become admin Jason425 will be the first to go.

[Prometheus]

Just for that you will never become admin. Napster. I will see to it.

[Dragon]

Gnogtr why do you even put up with his BS, I swear to God when I become admin Jason425 will be the first to go.

[/napster shoots self in foot]

:lol:

[Jason425]

Gnogtr why do you even put up with his BS, I swear to God when I become admin Jason425 will be the first to go.

[/napster shoots self in foot]

:lol:

hey pro.. ROFLMAO!!!!!!!!

and gnogtr.. I said MOST .. not all... and didn't specifically say you.. but take it how you wish..

[CiKoTiC]

Conservatives and older generations and cultures often show little hope, or at least count on it, and often fail to recognize problems (because they choose not to because they don't think anything can be done about it anyways).

I agree. The public has become so disenfranchised from the current government that they no longer want to participate in it. For the people, by the people has no meaning any more because the average Joe that works his a$$ off day after day has to sit and watch big companies pour mega dollars into lobbyist to persuade law makers into doing what is best for them. NAFTA and China's Preferred Trade status is just two examples. Not to mention outsourcing to India!!!

The U.S legislative process has become big business. Simple as that. It's not about what is good for the people anymore. Bush, Kerry, or Larry Flint. It doesn't matter. Big business trumps all.

[Jason425]

next: trump is pres...

[Prometheus]

I agree with the business bit...iraq.....lots of oil....we are on federal reserves...bush is too cheap to make a hydrogen car system......he him self is a bit of an oil tycoon.....

[Aemon_]

yes, you're right, President Bush wants nothing to do with hydrogen fuel cell powered vehicles.

http://www.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/presidents_initiative.html

later

[Dragon]

nice one aemon, thwarting the uninformed!

EDIT: i didnt know that either by the way.

[Prometheus]

1.2 billion only to H fuel cars. We need more if we are going to change a standard.

[Dragon]

dont you think you should research it thouroughly first before throwing it into mainstream circulation? anyways, as always.. theres never enough money in any situation.

[Aemon_]

1.2 billion only? thats alot of money pro. and if he is such a money grubbing, republican, oil tycoon - why is he alotting any money at all to hydrogen research? its gonna take a long time to change standards, no matter how much money you dump into it. how long have we been using gasoline?

later

[Dragon]

pwnt pwned owned. how should i spell it?

[vee_ess]

I'd say pzoned but the whole Pizza Hut thing is over. Anyways, hyrdogen fuel cells are nothing more than a waste of money. No real benefits.... I'm just waiting for tons uninformed responses...

[Jason425]

yea ok water vapor vs smog... + global warming.. + all the crap that comes with both... smooth one vee.. nothing uninformed about that what I said..

[vee_ess]

Before I get started, let me first make sure we all understand that hydrogen power is not an actual source of energy but rather an energy storage device. This is because we get hydrogen from molecules and the extraction requires energy. The two primary sources for hydrogen are natural gas and water. It requires extremely high amounts of energy to extract hydrogen from water (electrolysis). Where do you think this electricity comes from? According to the DOE, 70.6% came from fossil fuels and another 20.0% came from nuclear energy, both sources being horrible polluters.

That being said, I am certain you can understand that hydrogen fuel cells do not eliminate the smog, but just creates it at the power factories rather than the vehicle itself. Also, automobiles contribute roughly a fifth of the total pollution while half of the pollution comes from industrial applications. So in addition to keeping the same amount of smog, we'll throw in enough water vapor to cause low level clouds. With wator having an extremely high specific heat, roughly 9 times that of iron, it is sure to have drastic effects environmentally.

With respect to the global warming issue, not only do the sources of hydrogen produce more heat than we'd need if we used those sources directly for energy, but we'll have other heat issues along the way. That includes heat being made from the machines that compress the hydrogen.

Keep the arguments for hydrogen coming, I like showing why hydrogen fuel is evil.

[Jason425]

From http://www.hydrogennow.org/Facts/Sources.htm
Sources of Hydrogen

Hydrogen is now made from natural gas (methane), petroleum, coal, various chemical reactions, and from biomass (landfill waste, wastewater sludge, and livestock waste). It can also be made from water by electrolysis.

Hydrogen can be made from renewable resources, such as wind or solar.

Hydrogen is currently made primarily from natural gas (methane), which is non-renewable.

Methane is a recycled fuel (and therefore renewable) when made by anaerobic digestion of biomass.

Hydrogen production from hydrocarbons can also produce carbon, which in some forms has ten times the strength of steel. With some research this carbon could be used for automobile bodies and structural members.

[vee_ess]

And that does nothing to say how hydrogen can help.
Well, it does go to credit what I said about fossil fuels (I know I said natural gas, I meant fossil fuels, I'm fixing that in my previous post after I finish here).

[Jason425]

well come on.. what am I supposed to say? Nothing? Pfft...
http://smiley.onegreatguy.net/argue.gif

[gnogtr]

You know J, I think you're trying to win an argument you're just going to lose. I like you, but you're way to closed minded. Hydrogen will produce wastes just like fossile fuels, and that's not going to help the polution problem. Oh, and a bit of info straight from my Environmental class, your state (OR) uses the most water on a daily basis, more than California! That's pretty insane, of course most of it's industrial use, but everybody's part of the problem, and that doesn't exempt you even though you think it does ;) .

[Jason425]

:lol: i'm from WA! hahhahaha.. but yea.. I can't just give up!

[CiKoTiC]

The technology to build cheap environment friendly automobiles has been around for decades. Methanol for example. It's cheaper, burns clean, and current automobiles are easily converted to use it.

What you have to ask yourself is not who will benefit, but who will it hurt? And the answer it Oil companies. The Oil industry pumps hundreds of millions of dollars stamping out these technologies because their entire industry would crash. They give millions to political parties to ensure that neither the Democrats or Republicans even mention alternative fuel sources. In addition, it could mean thousands of jobs and who wants to be the president that causes that?

What it's going to take is for someone to start an entirely new automobile manufacturing business based on alternative fuel. But that would cost billions and who wants to spend that? Or, a gradual switch from oil to alternatives over a long period of time to give the oil industry time to adjust.

The answer is easy, implimenting the solution is not.

[gnogtr]

Whoops, I thought you were from OR. Well, in that case, Washington uses the same amount of water as California, a state that is more than twice WA's size! Amazing, but no, you're still not exempt. You drive a car just like everybody else here, so you're part of the problem ;) .

[Jason425]

but I don't drive a big honking truck or SUV! I try!

[vee_ess]

Cik's absolutely right again. Methanol and Alcohol are easily among the best solutions right now. All the downsides they have are lesser than with gasoline and most other fossil fuels, and a very minimal amount of changes are required to make gasoline based vehicles compatible (maily fuel delivery and computer components).

About hydrogen causing its own forms of pollution, you're right gnogtr. I just want to note that it doesn't replace fossil fuel's pollutions, because it doesn't eliminate them. For the most part, you're still using natural gas to get the hydrogen from, but now you are also using coal for electricity to extract the hydrogen, using even more fossil fuel than if you were to just use gasoline. That's why I've seen some experts suggesting that hydrogen might actually increase pollution emissions. Hydrogen's just a battery.
An evil battery.

[Prometheus]

I dont understand :confused:

Hyrdrogen would only have water as a byproduct. Its basic algebra.

Water + Electricity = Hydrogen

[Jason425]

yea but he's saying that we get electricity from coal... screw coal! Solar and hydro baby!

[Prometheus]

solar is highly inefficent right now.

[Jason425]

I know.. $ should go into it.. oh yea how could I forget WIND power! :D

[Prometheus]

Actually the candians just figured out a way to make them more efficent recently. Its in the slashdot archive somewhere.

[vee_ess]

Yeah, there are several ever increasingly efficient models of solar power, yet the most efficient to date is still not even close to where it should be. Some bushes, as small as 3 feet in diameter can receive as much energy as a football field filled edge to edge with today's most advanced solar panels. If we were able to harness that science as an energy source organically, then we'd actually have a source that's good for the environment.

Wind power has increased tremendously lately, yet we are still producing something like a total of 7000 megawatts (we use a little over 2 million megawatts). One of the problems with wind power is the cost; the current amount that we have is worth 4 billion dollars. Even though wind power is considered green energy, it has a negative effect on weather patterns and tends to cool ambient temperatures. It's probably considered green because we don't know much about the results of the effects on weather patterns or to what degree. The Union of Concerned Scientists (http://www.ucsusa.org/) seems to favor wind power (http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_energy/index.cfm) over everything else right now. (note: their site is currently showing errors, but if you're interested keep checking it)

[Prometheus]

Chaos theory man

[Dragon]

what, like the butterfly effect?

[Prometheus]

bingo.

[vee_ess]

what, like the butterfly effect?

No. Fields of wind mills drastically slow down air movements, and, even more importantly, the air molecules themselves (which causes decreases in temperatures). It's bad enough polluting, but at least we can filter the air and fix it. Weather is a different beast, however. It's something that we are not more powerful than, and something we know very little about. Note that weather also affects more than rain and sunshine. Current levels of production of energy from wind power allow it to have a very minimal effect on weather, but if we were to take it from .35% to 35% it would be an entirely different picture.