OK, I've reread the 4th of July post, with special reference to posts made by 'bear', and I've got to say I can't see where he was ridiculing the celebration of American pride. Perhaps it's because I'm not American that I can't understand why you seem to have taken his posts (and increasingly mine?) in the wrong tone.

I think several of his comments were quite accurate, and I don't believe that if pointed at my country I would take them in the wrong spirit - hard to say I know given that they AREN'T pointed at my country, but I'd like to think I can take criticism of my country's policies with a bit of diplomacy. Sure, we've made mistakes (the UK I'm talking about now) - God knows the whole American thing was one of them, and we've made several (thousand) since...

I think the important thing is not simply to ignore any criticism levelled at your country, nor to deny it point blank, but to take it onboard and think for yourself. Fair enough if you don't agree with it, but that doesn't necessarily make it untrue, nor even if it is untrue does it make the person who says it a terrorist/traitor/liar/etc - simply someone with a different viewpoint from yours.

Isn't America supposed to celebrate diversity? 'All men created equal' - does that not allow for a variety of opinion on matters? If we only allow one viewpoint, then we destroy innovation and change. I'm not in any way saying that what 'bear' says is more valid than your viewpoint, simply that you shouldn't immediately discount him as 'the enemy', whatever that may mean.

I have no requirement to discuss any more religious points so I think if you can leave the religious aspect of American policy out of it, I can!

Gotta get to bed - sorry if any of this is unintelligible but have had a few  :-*